Colleen Swindoll Thompson Shares How She Reframed The Caregiving Journey

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I am Peter Rosenberger, HopefortheCaregiver.com. This is a special. Podcast interview that I periodically like to do, where I have a guest that I feel like we need to have a very long conversation just to be able to cover a variety of topics in this very challenging journey as a caregiver. And such is my guest today, Colleen Swindahl Thompson. who has a very large story, a very big story.

And when I say big story, I'm no stranger to a big story. And Colleen's has captivated me in what she and her family have gone through, and I am thrilled to be able to. Talk with her about our shared experiences, her journey, and the insights she's learned, and the strength that she's been able to lean upon. during a very challenging journey. Her ministry is reframingministries.com.

Reframing Ministries.com and I would encourage you to go out and check out her website. I did and I watched the video of her family and I will reference a part of that video in this interview today that was really very funny, but you'll have to wait and see where that comes up. But in the meantime, I want to get right to it. Colleen, can you give us a 30,000-foot view of your journey and then we'll dig deeper and see where the conversation goes? How about that?

Sure. Basically, I had two very healthy children. And then my third, my youngest, Jonathan, who's now 25, was born with an immune deficiency and was basically sick through childhood. Autism and intellectual disabilities, and a lot of diagnoses. And by the time he was nine, I was a single parent.

raising three children. And my daughter was in a very. Tough place.

So we've gone down the mental health route, we've gone down the physical route, the disability route, the hospital route, the functional medicine. I mean, We kind of tried it all. And through that process, one of the things that I did learn is I put my hope in a lot of people and systems, the court system, the therapies, and They're going to help. At least give John a better life. And in doing so, it was displaced hope.

And the Lord has been working with me. Since that time, that's going to be now 15 years on. Accepting that his way is right, his way is perfect, his way is good, and I may not always like it. He does not have to give me an answer why. Moving forward a little bit, Peter, to remarrying, moving to Texas, starting a special needs ministry, and then rebranding that in 2018 to reframing ministry.

Because basically, when you are a caregiver, you have to reframe your life. And reframe means look at through a different lens or a different perspective, taking a camera lens and either. bringing it up close or pulling it way back. And in doing that. I had 10 surgeries also in the last 10 years.

And then last year, Jonathan actually collapsed. physically emotionally he does have a seizure disorder But he went into a mental. state of being catatonic. Fell and fractured his back in three areas. We spent This whole last year, trying to find out what was happening with him.

And so the Lord pretty much uprooted what I thought. was a good foundation because it did get worse. And it got a whole lot worse. And yet, through that, I look back on things that I've learned from what I call the bathroom floor because John and I have spent so much time on the bathroom floor, working with both ends of his body, trying to get food to work and process and cleanse him out. We are in the thick of things.

I have remarried an amazing man who adopted John in 2017. My daughter is married, doing great. And my son is not married. He's single. He's super good looking.

He's wonderful. They're all three wonderful. And by God's grace, I will say that they are where they are, and I am where I am.

Well, I certainly understand that. And I saw the video that you have on your family story. It's been quite a story. It is. And I think when I started doing reaching out to fellow caregivers, one of the things that, and you and I talked about this earlier, that it irritates me that people think of caregivers as being nursing homes.

That's all they think about. And it just, I'm just like, really? I've been a caregiver since I was 22. And I have yet to be in a nursing home. I started branching out and seeing families with special needs children, seeing families dealing with mental health issues.

alcoholism, addiction, any type of chronic impairment. And in your family's case, you dealt with quite a few things all at one time. And you dealt with that as the family was disintegrating. Yes, sir. A lot of people don't realize this: that if you have a disability in the family, 90%.

of the marriages will crumble like 89 and some change will crumble. And Gracie and I have been raised by a pack of therapists. And so we've had, I mean we've had a couple of marriage counselors that for us, I think one of two of them. Got divorced. I think one of them left the industry, and I think another one turned to drugs and alcohol after us.

Yeah. That's okay. We may have a few of those as well, but we do a regular check-in with a therapist because, I mean, I have an amazing, amazing husband who puts up with a lot of my. Temperamental areas, and yet we need to do the checkups because it's essential for our communication. And we notice that our kids don't do as well.

When we're not doing as well, but it is intentional, that is for sure. But I think the part of that is respecting the trauma. When you respect the trauma that the body has gone through or the soul has gone through, I think that's the first step towards being healthier. I've had to learn to deal with it with what happened with Gracie. and respecting the trauma and then also respecting the trauma of what's happened to me.

Yes. And I didn't do that. I just assumed that the role of caregivers was to take the arrows. Yeah. And that's not the role of caregivers.

We will take arrows, but that's not our mission. That's not our purpose of just to take arrows. And we have to understand that we're traumatized as well. Our spirits are traumatized. I think that for me.

And see if this resonates with you. But for me, what happened was it took a long time because I'm a slow learner. I recognized that the place I had to go. There was no other place to go. Yeah.

to understand What God was saying in this. I resisted this because I was so angry with God for allowing it. I never doubted that God could change it. I just was angry that he didn't, and he chose not to. And it really wasn't.

Until And people kept telling me all the time: Jesus understands, Jesus understands, Jesus understands. You know, the same platitudes we all get from church folk who want to say something nice. Right. Yeah. And I didn't see it.

I mean, I looked through all of scripture. I never saw anywhere where a husband was taking care of his wife through all these surgeries, both legs, you know, all this stuff. I never saw that. Right. And so I had to, but then.

Through God's provision, I step back from it. And I got a bigger view of God, a higher view of God. And I saw. That Jesus identified himself as the bridegroom. The church is the bride.

And we are a wounded bunch of people. The church is very wounded. And I realized that my Savior is the. Ultimate caregiver of a wounded brut. Yeah.

And I realized at that point. Oh, wait a minute. I'm missing something here. Mm-hmm. And that's when I started to.

Except my own trauma, deal with it, but in the light of what his provisions are. It sounds real ethereal. I don't mean it to be that way because for me, it was a very practical thing. And I started realizing: okay, I'm going to settle myself down through this path now. Instead of me railing against God.

Which I have done on many occasions, and I've offered my consulting services to the Almighty on numerous occasions. He has take notes, don't you need them? Yes. And people say, Well, God's never late. I say, Yeah, but he misses a lot of opportunities to be early.

Certainly never early. And so, and I stopped. trying to fight against it and instead just said, okay, where Where is he in this? What am I learning? Who am I becoming through this?

And so, talk a little bit about that because you had a lot of the same epiphany where you were just like this is spiraling out of control, and you were pushing yourself to inhuman levels. Mm-hmm. And then something switched in you. Talk a little bit about that.

Well, I think one of the Preconceived ideas that we have in the Christian church, and not to rail against the Christian church, but it just is not true, is that. God will step in. And things will transformation happens. And then we move on with the rest of our lives. And the reframing story is.

No, we go through a serious experience or a multitude of experiences that are very traumatic. The book, The Body Keeps Score, is incredible. I'm reading that book now. Oh my gosh, it's amazing. And it's heartbreaking.

Yes, it is. It is. But it is amazing.

So we did a trauma-intensive because Jonathan did go through. A lot of sexual abuse and a lot of abuse in general. We all did. And so I'm traumatized. And as caregivers, there's secondary trauma or complex trauma.

And it literally does change how our brains. Function. I love science now, as John Townsend says, it actually proves what Jesus has been saying all along. Straw on that. Keeps us from being able to become fully present.

And that keeps us from Processing Who Jesus is in our relationship.

So, back to the trauma piece. I wrestled a lot with trauma after the court failed and Uh I'm dealing with a son now who has a traumatic brain injury from being assaulted. Repeatedly, which is common among those with disabilities. And I had to settle with the fact that, you know. God, our Father, saw his son die.

And I did not have to see what happened to Jonathan. I heard a lot from what he said. But the fact that he says, I'm acquainted with your grief.

Sometimes we want it to be the same grief. It's not going to be the same grief. All the time. But grief is deep, and it's in all of us as caregivers dealing with medical trauma. In the trauma-intensive that we went to, and it's based off of the book, The Body Keeps For.

Um John went through a lot of work. to draw out things that happen. Um. And in hearing those stories, I realized there was so much medical trauma that he went through pre-verbally.

Okay. that his brain is now processing. And he wasn't even able to process it. Basically, his body just shut down. As I said a year ago, he just could no longer contain.

What was in him? And isn't that like? All of us. It's absolutely like all of us. And I.

There's another book, if you get it, I don't know if you've read it or not, Suffering in the Heart of God. Yes. Amazing book. Yeah. I ran out of highlighters because Diane Langberg is one amazing individual who is on target when she says people who have been abused and trauma.

From an early age, we are marinated in it. But if you think about that. Word. She opens that book up with her being in. this slave castle in Ghana.

And I've been there because we work in Ghana, and I've taken teens over there.

So I knew exactly what she was talking about. And there's this, there's, she describes this, and I want you to. I want you to. Give me your thoughts on this. She describes When they turn off the lights and everybody's downstairs in these dungeons.

There's a beautiful castle on top of all these dungeons. And you can tour the castle, and you see the little offices of the commander, then you see the chapel. Where they had worships there. It looks like a little. Anglican chapel, which is pretty much what it was.

But when they turn off the lights, it was pitch black downstairs, and they had all these men crammed into one room and one dungeon area, and all these women crammed in the others, waiting to go be taken out on the boats, be taken. to America. and other places. But the slave masters made them all be very quiet so the people could have church upstairs. Yeah.

And what she says is the church. Is not separate from the dungeon. The church is supposed to go into the dungeon, and then the dungeon becomes the church. And I thought Okay, we could spend a lot of time just on that concept because I think that you said something in your. Uh, video that I watched across the board, the church doesn't prefer a miss.

But behind closed doors, there's a mess. And we don't want to miss. In our churches. It's uncomfortable. But when you have a disability, you've got no choice.

Right. And I have had to become comfortable with the mess. In fact, as we walk people through the process of. Reframing their lives. The first part is, it's like a do-it-yourself.

We see all the flip-home things and Before they can have a beautiful home, they have to get out. stuff that's been in there. They're hitting everything with sledgehammers and Blowing out walls. That's a mess, but you don't ever see anybody that's sad about that. because they know what's coming.

And so, the renovation process, which, as we talk about in the work that I do, is the middle part where. We have to become comfortable with the mess. And once we do, We learn how to walk on rubble. And we find little nuggets and little gems that That suddenly surfaced, that we would have missed. Had things not been blown out and ripped apart.

I remember, Peter, when my mom and dad redid their, they remodeled their home. And when they got down to the studs, the guy goes, I'm shocked that this home is not burned up. The wiring is. Horrible.

Well, had they not ripped it all out. We would have never known about the wiring.

Well, that's how it is in our souls. In fact, The Soul of Shame by Kurt Thompson. Hey buddy, hold on. Go go go. Oh, he's come on in.

Tell the Kimonian. Hey, John, come here, buddy. You want to meet Mr. Peter? This is my son, Jonathan.

How are you doing, Jonathan? How do you know my name?

Well, your mom has told me all about you. I'm Peter. I've told him you're a chick magnet. Are you a chick magnet? I like your haircut, Jonathan.

Thanks. Jonathan, from what I understand. You like to toot in the car. Yes, I did. Is this true, Jonathan?

Yeah. Well, are you any good at it? I'll stay. Roll the windows down. He's got that one down, stellar.

Well, I think that's a remarkable achievement, Jonathan. How are you feeling today? How you feeling? Tired. Tired?

Let's It's still early in the morning. He usually right now in this season, he's sleeping until like 11.

Well, you know what? I would too if I could, but I wake up with the chickens out here. I get up pretty early. My wife doesn't like to get up early, but I do. I don't like to get up early.

Well, Jonathan, I am glad to meet you. It's a pleasure to see you.

Well, listen, we'll see you, Jonathan. Stay bye. Bye. He just had his infusion. But anyways, Pierre's It's a show for caregivers.

And I'm still a recovering perfectionist. And it's my show. I will stand back and I am corrected. I will let them all come in. Just let it all.

Messiness doesn't bother me here. And we were just talking about messiness, and I'm like, Trying to keep it all together. It's it's a that's that's why I do a show for caregivers because I love it. This is this is part. And if I want to talk about Jonathan tooted in the car, I think that was the funniest part of the whole video, honestly.

It was. I mean, it just was so it was a moment of great pride. He's so proud of that.

Well, you know, and why shouldn't he be? But see, my niece, I have a niece that's 34. And she has cerebral palsy, and she's wheelchair-bound. She's immobile and nonverbal. She's about like an 18-month-old.

Wow. And this is my brother's daughter. And she is uh fascinated By bodily sounds. And when they take her to church and Things happen, it gets her into this big laughter moment. And again, It's okay for it to be messy, folks.

It's really okay. And nobody drove that point home better to me. Than Gracie, when she had Uh her legs were so scarred after her wreck. And she was always very self-conscious about that. And then, when she lost her legs, she wanted to have shapely, beautiful prosthesis so she would have pretty legs again.

Okay. I never knew Gracie before her Rick. She was down at her sister's house at Fort Walton Beach, Florida. where she was raised and She's sitting there on the dock while everybody else is swimming. And she can't get in the water because she has pretty legs.

And her prosthesis, and she couldn't get in.

So she called up her prosthetist. And she said. Can I take these coverings off? He said well. She said, because what happens if I get in the water?

And he said, well, they'll balloon up and it'll be a wreck. He said, might as well just take them off.

So I was sitting there out there in the water. And I looked up, and there's my wife on the dock, and she has a knife out, and she's cutting all the cosmetic skin off of her legs. And it looked like, you know, a scene from The Terminator. You know. And it was the freakiest thing.

And then she walks down on the dock. Patterns of prosthetic covering are coming from falling behind her, and she dives into the water. And from that moment upward. From that moment on, she's never worn covered prostheses. She's always looking.

And this is nowadays a lot of. People do this because of the war and soldiers coming back and they do it. But this was back in the 90s. And she has always been this way, and she boasts all the more gladly in her weakness, for in her weakness, Christ's power rests upon her. That's her verse.

And so she really does. She's extraordinary. And if you can't, and she says, I wear them this way, and I'm who I am because I need to know really quick if you can deal with this. Because if you can't, then I don't need you in my life. Right.

Right. You know, and so this is a way for her to kind of filter out: if you can't deal with this, this is who I am, this is what I live with. And if this causes you to be uncomfortable, let's go ahead and get that out of the way first. It's so That's pretty much why I was so honest in the documentary, and why I am very honest because. This is who I am.

This is the family that God is continuing to transform, and we're messy. You know, when I talked about my daughter being suicidal and cutting, that's when self-harming was just coming out.

Well, Peter, when you were, when Gracie was shaving her legs off. you know, not a lot of people were showing prosthetics and it wasn't.

So disabilities has come so far. And I admire her for saying, this is who I am. And I'm going to go. Deal with it. Yes.

Yes. And I think. in the church We have to become comfortable with ourselves. before we can become comfortable with the mess. I wasn't comfortable with messes before.

And then, when my son's pooping in the middle of this expensive park that we were visiting in Laguna Beach, and the other two kids, they're like, mom, this is so embarrassing, you know, junior high. And I just said, Well, you can walk over there, but we got, I got to take care of this. This is our life.

Now. I would like it to be nice sometimes, and it is. But that's not how Jesus is. And that's why I love, as we talked, I love the disciples. I love who they were.

Because they were real. people that probably would never get hired in a church. I don't think the church would hire Jesus. He'd be too on the edge. I'm pretty certain of it.

That he wouldn't. But you know, and I, and here's a quote also. I want to give you this one. The family moves at the speed of its slowest member. Hmm.

Does the church move at the speed of its slowest member? No. No. And I go back to Luke 14. Where it says, go out to the highways and the byways and bring all these people in that are lame, that are, that have all these things going on.

There's not the implication that they automatically just get restored and everything gets hunky-dory as soon as they walk to the church. There's the, I think there's, I, I think I have. Um I have rightly deduced this. There is the implication. That we're going to minister to them, and they will minister to us.

We will corporately minister to each other and worship together, God, in all of our brokenness. Yes. It is a beautiful mess. Yes. It's a beautiful mess that we're not responsible to clean up.

And I think there's too many times that we have. Put ourselves through unnecessary angst to wash God's hands. Mm-hmm. And I think it was. I think it was Philip Yancey's book, I think, where I started seeing that in Disappointment with God.

Yeah. Uh, great book. He and I went to the, I don't know him, but uh, we went to the same Bible college. Just years apart. I understand him.

He's got an amazing story. Because I've spent so much time with this issue. It's given me the opportunity to pod. Today. This right here.

Over my keyboard. Yeah. It's from a Post-it note that I have on my office door that I had when we lived in Nashville. And I've had it for years, and I put it on the office door. There's only one hymn in the entire hymnal that uses the word ponder.

And it's praise ye the Lord, the Almighty, the King of creation. Praise ye the Lord. And then there's the last is ponder anew. What the Almighty can do. And that, and Gracie had that done for me, and it's right over here on the keyboard framed: ponder anew what the almighty can do.

And I don't think we take enough time to ponder. And when you live with the disability, when you live with it long enough. You're going to have opportunities to ponder these topics. Yeah. This is where we are.

And I think that the struggle. is in the resistance, not the acceptance. We just want to resist it. We don't want to accept this. We are resisting this.

And that's where our tension comes in. Is that what you found? Um Yeah. Yes, I loved Jonathan so all three of my children.

So either I had to. Love them or pretend to have something altogether when we didn't. And that was the turning point. Um In the world, let me interrupt you. It takes a lot of energy to pretend, doesn't it?

It's exhausting. I was not going to do any Facebook lives because I didn't know what they were like because I'm older and I wasn't raised with it.

So, the but it can't get worse than this. The first one I did was in my neck collar after magnet surgery, and no makeup on. And I thought, you know, this is who I am right now. And so, if you can't handle it, it'll only get better, hopefully, but it may not. And yet, we are all at different places.

I love what you said. that they give to us. And we give to them. There's no difference in the value of the soul. Of a person that may or may not have arms, may or may not have legs, who can think theologically or can't read or write.

There's no difference in the value of that person. And yet through COVID, when we had time to ponder. The anger and the numbers of abuse cases. And just this all out. Tension.

I think came from. people being forced. to sit with themselves. And like, I don't like this very much. That I don't know.

What do you think about that? Caregivers suffer from three eyes. I've said this for since I started doing this. We lose our independence, we lose our identity, and we become isolated. That's yes, I agree.

And so that isolation that we as a global community experienced for the first time in the history of mankind. Yeah. Where we were isolated. In such a stark an abrupt way. It Mirrored a lot of what caregivers go through anyway.

We have to deal with this. Caregivers can feel isolated in a crowded room, we can feel isolated on a crowded pew. And as we all masked up and started doing this, people started feeling a little bit of what caregivers go through on a regular basis: that we are disconnected, we are detached from so much, and we are starved for the embrace of fellowship. Yes. Ultimately.

If we spend enough time with that, we'll realize that the only place to truly get that is through Christ. And this is where God says, yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with us. We're in the Christmas season, Emmanuel, God with us. That is what our souls crave. is to be in fellowship.

And and I For us to think that somehow we can't fellowship with anybody that is not of like mind. Or abilities as us. Yeah. antithetical to Christian to scripture. I know.

Jesus said, come unto me, all you are weary and heavy laden. He's responsible for sorting this out. Even the wheat and the tares grow up together. He's responsible for sorting it out. And we don't have to put these demands that somehow we've got to be uniform in our assembly.

Because I'm not expecting people to show up and be able to do what I can do, or I hope they're not expecting me to show up and do what they can do. Right now. I have a question, Peter. You said our souls ultimately crave the relationship with Jesus. And I think, what does that look like practically for you?

Well, for me, I go back to this thing: ponder anew what the Almighty can do. And there's that, for me, it, it. It's me recognizing I have exhausted everything that I could even think of. That would settle my heart down.

Now, I don't know that our souls crave Christ outside of his Holy Spirit. In fact, I'm certain of it because scripture says no one seeks after God. Uh, in our natural fallen state, we don't, but because of his spirit that draws us. We do. And we realize that, but we're all born with that.

General revelation of That there is something more. There has to be. And so we, the special revelation course comes through scripture. But the general revelation, the heavens declared the glory of God. All these things are general revelation.

And But but we are we are somehow on this At least I was. And still struggle against this on this thing that I've somehow, it's up to me to somehow. Satisfy my soul. Mm. And I fill my life with so many things that create more angst as opposed to being soul settling.

And so when I go back and I sit still, be still and know that I am God, scripture says, when I sit still, and ponder That's when I realized, oh, this is what he means. And I can chew on these things. And some people say, you know, I'm going to read a chapter a day in my personal devotion, whatever. I don't put that kind of legalism on me or anybody else. I simply just.

Hear it. And I just chew on it for a very long time. And I have to do it very slow and in small bite-sized portions because otherwise it's too much for me. And I have to, I go, I try to overkill it. And so I just want to be still.

And that's why I go back and I play a lot of the old hymns. Beautiful words, wonderful words, wonderful words of life. And so, okay, so let me just think, think on that for a little bit. Seeing him over and over again. Wonderful words of life.

Thy word have I hid in my heart that I may not sin against thee. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, not a searchlight, a lamp.

Okay. The steps of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. And he just walks with us slowly through it. And I realize that go back to what you said, it's exhausting to pretend. Yeah.

It's exhausting to be resentful. Yeah. It's mind-numbingly exhausting. I've tried it. And I tell people: I said, you can't play a piano with clenched fists.

You can't push a wheelchair with clenched fists. Yeah. It's exhausting. Yeah, and I was listening to a friend of mine pastor said the other day we were talking to me. He said, Isn't it exciting to be able to step out on faith?

And I said, No, it's exhausting to me. It's exhausting. I'm just resigned to it, Lord. Just whatever. I'm so tired that I'm just like.

Whatever. just whatever okay so we're back in the emergency room yeah it's just whatever And I was writing an article for Lifeway that'll be out next year. And It was about Quietening the noise. Yeah. Because there's so much noise around us.

So, you asked me, so what does that look like for me? There's so much noise. I have to quiet the noise. But I was writing that. On a hospital tray that they serve dinners on in the emergency room while they were checking with Gracie, what her INR got so high.

This was just, in the last month Oh my god. And so they're all working on her IVs and everything going on. And I'm writing. An article on my laptop, quiet in the noise. But I realize, and you'll see it in one of the Lifeway publications next year.

And I'm thinking. That's the work of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. That's not me. That's Christ.

In me the hope of glory, recognizing that even in the ER. when I write this piece. That my soul can be settled. Hmm. Though sorrows like sea billows roll Okay.

And This is what it looks like. for me. And this is what I try to help my fellow caregivers see. And I think you, as I glean from you and from your video and the story I've been hearing from you. This is the point you had to get to, but how much?

How much flopping around do we do before we get to that point?

Well, and honestly, Peter, I'm still flopping around because just this last week, I'm not kidding, I said to my husband. Because noise in my past. um when it was quiet that meant someone was angry And so there was always something going on. And if it wasn't going on externally, it was rattling up in my head. And so I'm still just this last week when John was having.

He will sometimes have these zone outs, and we're not quite sure what. The spiritual part of it is because a huge part of Caregiving. Help me understand. It was zone out, you said? Yeah, he kind of zones out, but we know it's not a seizure because he's able to respond.

And so Again, this has all come about this last year as we've been working through all the detoxing. But it was very quiet. And I thought, I'm not going to turn on anything. I'm not going to yell at Alexa for something that she didn't notify me about. I'm just going to be quiet and I'm going to play with the dogs.

And so I threw the dogs, we played fetch back and forth. And Peter, I was just internally really wrestling. Like, why am I not? Calm here, because typically I can be. When I had my neck surgery, I was on my back.

My assistant goes, Do you ever?

Now. Are you ever still? And I told her, rarely.

So I'm still flopping around in these areas of Quiet the noise. And I told my husband, I'm really struggling with. Just letting this be peaceful. And John was completely at peace. And my husband said, he goes, quiet is peaceful to me.

Because again, we go back to trauma. And he didn't experience what I experienced.

So I'm having to continually give that over to the Lord. not let my identity be wrapped up in caregiving. but in Jesus. You know, Gracie lives with chronic pain. I mean, intractable chronic pain.

It's pretty severe. And it's been this way since Reagan's first term. Oh my gosh. And I don't, I quite truthfully, I don't know how she does it. But she is, I was down, we were in Denver earlier this year when she had this big back surgery, and she's meeting with the anesthesiologist pre-surgery.

And they were going over all of her meds and her pain levels and all that kind of stuff. And they looked at her and she's got her tablet out. She's doing this stuff. And she said, Well, what's your pain level now? And Gracie told her, What helps you with your pain?

And Gracie quietly looked at her and said, Singing And it was just one of those moments where. For me, time just stood still. My heart just. It's hard to process that moment because she was not. Being dramatic about it.

She was being very matter of fact. This is how I deal with it. And I watched her in recovery. And she was singing and I had the phone up. She was FaceTiming with Johnny Erickson Tata.

And Gracie, she was singing. Give thanks with a grateful heart in recovery. Johnny's watching her and the two of them spend. A lot of time in this area talking about because they have a common journey of suffering and disability. And I thought about what chronic pain does to you.

And it keeps you just like this all the time. You're just frenetic. There's a bombardment to your senses is overwhelming, and you've got to learn to deal with this. in a way that calms your spirit down because you know that you're not going to get out of pain. It's not going to stop.

How is that different from the pain of our hearts and our trauma? in our hearts and our souls. what you've been through and and again i go back to respecting the trauma And I look at Colleen, I look at what you have endured. And as I watched your video, I was like, That's a lot of trauma. It takes a long time.

to give adequate respect to that trauma. Just a marriage falling apart. Is traumatic enough that it takes some people a lifetime to process. And that was only one of several things.

Okay. And so it A process. It it's gonna take time. And I walked out the other day. I was going up to my father-in-law's house up on the hill.

And one of the unusual things we have out here in the wintertime, particularly. I was walking up in the snow. I didn't go, it's only about 300 yards through the pasture. To the field, but the snow was about a foot and a half deep, and I didn't feel like slogging through that.

So I walked up the road, it's about a half a mile to go around that way. And There was no wind. There were no cars, no planes, no birds. Nothing. I was outside.

And it was dead quiet. Oh my god. It's unnerving. to be in that kind of quiet I have found for a lot of people. It's spooky to them.

It's unsettling. And yet this is what, as people who understand trauma, This is what we desperately need: is that quiet. There is a place of quiet rest near to the heart of God. Yes. How do you find quiet?

I find quiet in listening to hymns. especially instrumental hymns. And I find quiet by water. I told my husband water is my love language. Anywhere there's water.

There's just a it's just And nature. Of course, one of God's revelations of who He is. Um to us. He keeps the oceans in check with all we dump into that. I can't keep my 10-gallon fish tank, the fish alive.

We've gone through so many fish. I'm like, guys, I'm giving up on fish. I'm sorry. Thank you. But he keeps the oceans.

And now that we can see through the telescope, Tob and I were just talking last night. How fast light travels and into these galaxies that we're now discovering, I think. Oh my. God, you're so big. How can I?

How can I take in the fact that he loves me so deeply? and knows me. Mm-hmm. Among the stars. And I love the verse in Genesis where he says, oh, and by the way, I threw out the stars.

It's just as he's creating things, and I tossed out the stars. The stars. Galaxies of them. And so nature. Truly speaks to me.

John and I went on a walk the other day, the first time he's gone out on a walk with me in a year. And we just felt a couple of the leaves on the trees. I said, John, look at how different these are. One felt like feathers, then we didn't touch the prickly ones. But yes, I have to slow down.

to his speed, like you say. And Um Observe. I love it. Anything outside except for the squirrel that's right now crawling up the tree because it's killing one of our trees. I just took a class on C.S.

Lewis at Hillsdale College. They offer free classes online. And I'm always on my Bluetooth because I'm always doing housework or whatever, you know, and so I can't sit down and take a class, but I can listen to these lectures. I was doing that. And one of the things that Lewis wanted to do.

Was to spark the imagination of people that of discovery. And we don't have that, we're so busy. Trying to um And this is what he talks about: is coming as a child, because to a child, every discovery is a monumental thing. Jonathan understands that in ways that maybe the rest of us may never, because for Jonathan, everything is exciting. You know, it's even tooting in the car.

It's There's enthusiasm about life and about discovery. Mm. when we move at 90 miles an hour with our hair on fire. We're not discovering anything.

So, when Grace and I went to dinner the other night, we couldn't go back east for Thanksgiving to be with family because of this surgery.

So we drove to this wonderful restaurant over in Big Skyria that we love. And as the crow flies, it's only about 60 miles. But as you have to go around the mountain, it's two and a half hours one way. Did you stay the night? I hope you didn't.

No, we didn't stay the night. I just drove back. We normally do, but because she just had the surgery, I didn't want to try to transfer her in an unfamiliar place. And we will go back and do that once she can start wearing her leg again. But along the way, We're not in a hurry.

The roads are covered with snow and ice. I mean, it would cause most people in the country to flint. I mean, they would just freak out if they saw what we were driving on. But But we saw bighorn sheep. Um yeah.

Moose Dear Beautiful rivers. We went through part of the park of Yellowstone, and we're not in a hurry. And I think that's what's changed for me when I moved out here from Nashville. When we lived in Nashville, I mean, everything was. It is breakneck speed.

Yes. And I didn't realize how weary my soul was until I came out here. Because I asked you about that when we talked. You know, what has that transition been like? Because I was.

I came out of the womb running. And so God will continually be working on me. Literally, I've tripped over the dog two months ago twice and had a concussion because I'm always moving so fast. And God's like, I'm going to slow you down and I fractured my knee and it's a mess. But yet.

I mean, that's a real awakening. But I wonder how many times we miss the smaller awakenings, like the moose or the deer. That are just quietly walking through the forest. If you can even see them, they're so hard to see. I saddle up a horse periodically, and I may go do that.

I don't know. I may do it this week. I don't know. But I get out there, and when you're out on a horse, Not here. You see things much differently.

Um you see things. Again, it's just for me, this is, but I've been a caregiver now. For a very long time. And I'm not used to going at that speed. I'm used to rapid fire everything.

Well, because you have a lot to get done, too. I do, and I've and I've amazed how God has. He's at the same time, he's made my world smaller. I'm in my little tiny office here with my studio here in our little tiny cabin. I mean, it's a small place, you have to eat a large pizza outside.

And it's it doesn't have to, you don't have to vacuum a lot. That's no, I don't. And our vacuum cleaner was broken for a week, and I don't know that I missed it. Um He's made my world smaller. Not in a punitive way.

He's granted us this great gift of making our world smaller as far as logistically. But in a place where everything is so much bigger. And then my show and the writings and everything I do are ex Or growing exponentially, but I'm doing it from this really tiny, very focused place of learning to be. Still. Yeah.

I don't know anything else to do. You can't have a five-year plan. When you deal with the things that I deal with, when you deal with what you deal with, how do you have a five-year plan? Yeah, my assistant said, Colleen, why don't this next year? We not think for a year ahead because I did that last year and then everything went bonkers.

And I finally had to resign myself. I mean, seriously, I'm flipping and flopping on this stuff still. She is like just three months. Let's just talk about three months. Because I'm a visionary and I'm thinking, we need to do this, and I wanna do that, and help these people, and have caregiver retreats, and connect with people this way.

And then, what happens if John has a seizure, or if he's in the hospital again, or if we're back and forth to doctors, you know. Why am I in such a hurry? And that goes back to. the voice that I speak to myself, which is the loudest voice that we hear.

So am I listening to? My voice. or the one that Christ says in his word. Like you said. My word is a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path.

Well, how fast can you go on a rocky path? Not that fast. especially in the dark. Um And I think that sense of awe. And wonder.

Changes us. And you asked earlier, how do I get that? It's music. The old hymns Um Written in horrible times. And yet they praised.

and worship God. And I think I have learned. On the bathroom floor this last year to sing. With John, as we just Lay there, work through his treatments. In fact, he vacuumed, he puts on his earbuds and vacuums to worship.

He is singing all the time. I love that old hymn. There's Within My Heart a Melody. And I can sing, but I can't sing at all.

Well, I can't either. I married a singer. I tried to avoid singing at all possible. But it's uh I have a question, Peter. Yes, ma'am.

I have a question. Speaking to those, to caregivers who are caring for, Those with mental health, like you mentioned earlier, addictions are there, and mental health issues have skyrocketed. That's a world that I. Really Met this last year with Jonathan's mental struggles. It's hard to quiet the world when that is.

when there's so much. Um to contain. As you are a caregiver. What do you say or how do you direct people to help quiet their world? I learned a lesson from.

Regions Bank in Nashville, Tennessee. I went in there, and there was a sign that says this is an autism-friendly place. And I thought, there's got to be a story behind this. This is a bank that does this, a place of commerce. And somebody obviously had.

So, I had a marketing person from Regions on my show to talk about. I said, There's got to be a story behind this. Yeah. And they did. And there was a story.

It's a great story. And they felt like this was something that they wanted to do. And they have special toys for kids with autism. And they got a room that's quieter. And I asked a question, I said.

to a friend of mine who's um who has two children with autism. And I said, If you can say anything to pastors. Yeah. What would you say? She said, Turn the music down.

Yeah. And turn the lights down. Yeah. And sometimes you're the sensory overload that people have. And I don't think people understand when you have a traumatic brain injury, when you have trauma, when you have trauma to your mental health issues, when you have addiction and so forth, there's so much amped up.

That you've got to detach. From this, but you can't export what you can't make work at home.

So if you're not settled in your spirit, If you don't understand these things on a core level, Yeah. There's no way you can tell anybody else about it.

So when I sit down and play at the piano. And I remember my pastor in Nashville asked me to do this. We had a big church, we went to it in Nashville. And he said it was like a barn before the service. And he said, Would you come out and just play and just maybe quieten everybody down to get ready for worship?

And I would. I just go out and play these old hymns that I loved. And when I play, The difference when I play versus maybe some others is when I play, I play like somebody who's watched a woman suffer for three decades, almost four. Yeah. And so I can't go out and play.

Pep Rally Music. Yeah. And I know that the churches like having the big worship bands and everything else. I would just say to you that Thoreau said once in a poem: all men live lives of quiet desperation. Mm.

That means that there are people in every congregation. Who were living lives, sitting on pews, living lives of quiet desperation. Mm-hmm. I can't go out in good conscience and play like a rock concert. No, I want to settle.

them down. to recognize how much trauma and respect their trauma. But I can't respect their trauma until I respect my own. And then take that to the cross and understand what Christ means to that. I don't mean that it's, I hate to talk God talk with people because that feels like I'm speaking Christianese.

Let me say this. There is a place of quiet rest near to the heart of God, a place where sin cannot molest. Near to the heart of God. And I think that's the only hymn that uses the word molest in it. And this is something that you understand.

That sin molests us.

Okay. And until we understand that the, I think it was Larry Crabb that said, sin is a bigger problem than we think it is. Oh, yes. And until we understand this. Yeah.

We're not going to be able to help anyone else through anything because we're not understanding the traumatic nature of what sin. does to us that Gracie had a car wreck in 83.

Well She is still dealing with, it was everything was broken. Uh Everything was broken, and we're still dealing with this. Here we are in 2022, and we're still dealing with this. 90-second event. That has lifelong implications.

Johnny dove off a dock. And here she is 55 years later. and she's still dealing with the implications of this Yeah. My father used to say, My dad's a minister, just like you, we're both PKs. And he would say.

God forgives instantly. Man takes a while. Nature never does. Wow. I've never heard that.

Nature never forgives. Yeah. It doesn't forgive. There are consequences in nature. These are laws that God set up.

God forgives and He restores and He heals and He works through and He provides grace along the way. But there are things that have happened to us. Yeah. That in this world are not going to be reversed. And I love that in The Chosen, where there was a scene where the guy that has stolen the horse, I don't know if you remember this scene.

He had stolen the horse, fallen off the horse, he had beaten the guy, and it broke his leg. Do you remember that scene? Did you see it? I didn't see that one. I've watched most of them with John.

Well, go back and watch it. And I love Jonathan Roomy Plays Jesus. Looked at him, said. I come from a kingdom. Where there's none of this.

Hmm. But in this world, Bones still break. Yeah. Hearts still break. Yeah.

So back to your question of I can't tell anybody about this. Until I have worked through this and lived this in my own life, knowing that I'm going to fail at it, and I'm going to fail at it until he calls me home. Mm-hmm. But How can I share? The great hope of christ Unless it is absolutely All I lean on.

What you have Clung to. Yeah, my hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name. Unless that is a part of my life, how can I ever share that with someone else with any kind of substance? And it's usually going to be when I do that.

it's usually going to be through tears. Yeah quietness. And gentleness because anybody that comes at you and bludgeons you with the Bible. Get away from those people. Run.

Run quickly. And I'm kind of a sheepdog for my fellow caregivers because I'm quite truthfully, I'm a little bit tired. of people trying to work out their theology on top of people who suffer. I'm a little bit tired of that. And I'm not there.

I can't fix it. But I can certainly try to intercept it and stand between. These people, so that they're not having to be at the mercy of these types. And I've been there. Grace and I have both been there.

Where we've had these people come up and thus saith the Lord. Anytime somebody comes up and says, thus saith the Lord, they better be quoting scripture. You know, because I'm not going to tolerate that anymore. These people are too traumatized. Yes.

I understand that. I know what that's like. And I don't want them to have it. You know what that's like. You saw that.

You saw when church folk turned on you. There's something wrong with you. Why would God be doing this?

Well, it has to be you. It couldn't be that God would decree this. Because that doesn't line up with their worldview of God. But I don't want a worldview of God. I want a biblical view of God.

Right. And there is a difference.

So sorry, I've kind of got a little diatribe on that. I'm right there.

Well, I'm right there with you. And I know. Before I had. A son with disabilities. I had no clue.

what it was like to be a caregiver in the in the Yeah. Definition of the word caregiver. And when I when god Entrust in me. With John's life, and my other two kids who have different needs as well. Yeah.

It has changed my life, Peter. I was so proud. and just thought I could put life so together. And now it's embarrassing to think. of things that I may have said or things that I may have done.

that hurt others because I had no clue. How to communicate. And so. I just interviewed my dad the other day. And He talks about his childhood.

It was not an easy childhood. At all. and all through childhood and young adulthood. There was suffering. There's been a lot of suffering in our family.

But at the end, he says, Had I not gone through all of that. I would not ever be able to be where I am today, not publicly. But just settled. Not an X was child. Yes, he has no pride.

He has no envy. I have found awards he's won. in the bottom of a drawer. He will never bring him out. And that's the man behind the closed doors that.

Oh, how can I be like you? You know how you can be like him? You have to suffer. And you have to learn how to suffer well. Deuteronomy 8:2.

I led you all the way in the wilderness for these 40 years, so I could test you to see if I could trust your character. And then I could be, I could use you. That's the verse that I cling to. and for some of us okay that 40 years is going to be We don't know the end of 40 years. Heath Green did a song back a long time ago, and Gracie covered it.

she does a great arrangement of it i want to i need to be more like jesus And it says, My one and only goal is his image in my soul. Mm. And I love that because it's, yes, my weakness is revealed, but by his stripes I'm healed. And I think that your dad understands certainly what Paul understood. At the end of his life, he said, all this is, it means nothing.

The awards stay in the bottom of the drawer. Because all that matters is my contentment in Christ. Mm-hmm. And what does that look like? How does that flesh out when you're back and forth to emergency rooms and you're back and forth to dealing with all this, and you have the nightmares?

Does Jonathan have nightmares? He did. He had horrid nightmares. Um for years. We learned more about that last year.

I have nightmares, and I have a startle response that sends me to the roof. Like, if someone walks in behind, I jump so high. And I'm like, honey, I'm sorry, I don't. I don't want to do that, but. I do.

It's that startle response, which is a very typical trauma response. I don't like. Do you consider yourself somebody who can read a room pretty quick? If I get out. In ways I can.

And in other ways, I want to give it a little bit of time.

So I am not quick to make an assumption. For an example, I made an assumption about a movie that was out years ago, and my husband said, Hey, let's watch this. I'm like, it was one of the best movies.

So, I both and I usually can read a person pretty well because I look at their nonverbals closely. Um Where do their eyes go? How are their hands? How's their body? Constitution.

I really want to look. around and see. Can you? Yeah, I can. aware of myself in space and time.

And I don't know. I don't know if you were born running. I was born on stage. But but I I don't know if that's caregiving. I don't know.

I can't know. I don't know that I can put one thing to it, but I'm constantly. Vigilant. Constantly. I'm always watching.

Yes. And I always know where Gracie is. Yes. Except the one time I that's when she broke her leg last year. Not the part I could fix with a hammer and duct tape, but the upper part of her leg.

She tripped and fell. You say that meaningfully. I know. And I was, I walked inside the house to put her purse down. I was going to go back out to get her, and her foot caught in a mat, and she twisted and fell and broke her leg.

And I was like, 30 seconds. And that just redoubled my effort to always know where she is. Yeah, that's a caregiver thing that's exhausting. There's always that heightened sense of vigilance. And once she's settled, then I can be, you know.

Okay, I can clock out for a moment if I know where she is. But at the same time, when I go to a place, I see exits, you know, I see what's going on. And I don't know if that's just because I've been. Doing this for so long. My mother was kind of stunned when she was going through some health issues.

And I was helping her. We were doing something, and she noticed that my arms were always around her. And I didn't even notice I was doing it. She said. I'm watching you, Peter, and this is.

It's almost like Involuntarily, with you, that you just don't even think about it. I mean, I don't when I play the piano, I'm not thinking about every note that I'm playing, I'm just playing. That's the way I am as a caregiver. When I see these things, I'm not really thinking about it, it's just. Here it is.

I got to do it.

So I've learned to read a room and I've learned to read people, I've learned to read a situation. Um I don't know that I remember doing that as much before. A couple decades of caregiving. But so I'm just kind of curious whether that happened to you. Yeah, I can instantly read someone who has either been traumatized or who is going through something hard.

That is just. Um my heart. I just sense it. And I can't get through a conversation without crying with them. Because I think.

Oh, I'm so sorry. that you've gone through that alone. or that you've gone through what you did. Endure. Knowing that God will use it somehow.

I'm not God. I'm with that person in that place in that time.

So, when I can individually or in a smaller group, I'll ask a couple questions that usually indicate where a person is. or what they're struggling with. And that's when I want it engaged more deeply. Because I just the superfluous conversations aren't really interesting. I just want to know people and their health.

And when I have callers to my program, the first thing I'll ask is, How are you feeling? And I'm not really trying to base everything on how we feel. But I want them to start expressing themselves. In first person singular. Because now we have an honest conversation.

Caregivers have a hard time speaking in first person singular. I was going to ask. If that happened, yeah. And every time, because that's part of that loss of identity.

So they'll say, Well, how are you feeling?

Well, we just had a bad night, or she was in the hospital. I'm like, No, no, I didn't ask about that. How are you feeling? And that's usually when the tears come, and we slow down and we say, okay, here's where we are. Because the heart moves like molasses.

Our brains are just firing all the time, but our hearts move so much slower. And it takes a long time. And we want to tidy things up. And I go back to your quote: the church doesn't prefer a mess. And so we want to tidy it up really quickly.

God doesn't mind messes. He creates them. I told my father, I said, God seems to be very comfortable with my discomfort. He does. How would we change otherwise?

Exactly. I've never changed by winning the lottery. I've never won the lottery, but I know when I'm going to win the lottery, it's the day before Jesus comes back. Exactly. Good one, God.

Good one. There you go. Yeah. One of my favorite quotes. is from Alexander Schultz and Eitson.

after he was imprisoned for 27 years in the gulag. And he said, Bless you, prison, for the change you've made in my life. For there upon that rotting straw mattress. I learned that the goal is not prosperity, as we're told, but the maturity of the human soul. I think I got that right.

The maturity of the human soul. Do we have mature human souls? In this world. And as I look at the craziness and politics and the rancor and all the things going on in the media and all the stuff. The world is desperate for mature human souls.

That's one of the things I wonder. Everyone is angry. I said this a long time ago when I started doing this program. I don't give my opinion. I don't like to give advice, and I don't give my opinion because my opinion is worthless.

My experience, however, is not. Yes. And here's, and scripture says they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, not the word of their opinion. And their testimony is that experiential understanding of Christ, of God, of his purposes, of what the Holy Spirit is doing. And That's your experience.

I am unimpeachable in my experience. My opinion is. is bumpkess. I don't I don't I don't care about my opinion. But my experience, on the other hand, here's what I've witnessed.

And I did this specifically in this last surgery with Gracie. When I went down there and talked to the nurses and the doctors before every shift changed, they wouldn't let me spend the night with her. Which is okay because I don't need to, not for 10 weeks. That gets you a crick in the neck. But I would tell the shift change nurses, particularly when they come in at night, if they hadn't worked with Gracie.

and surgeons I would say, in my experience. I have found that she will get through the night better if you. Assure her. that you've got her. Because the fear, because she's in so much pain all the time.

And when you deal with somebody. who is in pain all the time, and then they have more trauma. Processing that pain is very difficult. And one lady was kind of arguing with Gracie about something, and they had to come to understand that Gracie's been doing this since before they were born. They look so young now.

I'm like, does your mother know where you are? Yes, Dookie Hazard. Yeah. But I said one physical therapist or something was trying to, and they never worked with a double amputee who had gone through this surgery. This is the biggest back surgery they do.

And she was the first one that was a double amputee at the University of so this was um University of Colorado, I'm sorry, Medical Center. She's the first double amputee they've done this surgery on.

So, physical therapy and rehab is going to be different. And they were arguing with her, and I pulled her aside and I said, It has been my experience. That you don't go toe-to-toe with a woman who doesn't have any. And so she got the point. By the way, she got the point.

Well, you've got to keep a sense of humor. I asked the surgeon if Tourette syndrome was a byproduct of this particular surgery. Yes. But the point was, is that our experience Is relevant, not our opinion.

So when you say everybody's got to have an opinion, well, I don't care about your opinion. What's been your experience? An experience is the teacher. And under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit becomes the transformer. When you go out and speak.

When you talk to fellow caregivers. Mm. Where does the conversation usually go? There's that moment, I think, and see if I get this right, but I believe this to be true, that a switch gets flipped in your brain, and you know that you are absolutely in lockstep in the zone of where this. Person is, and what the Holy Spirit in you is.

Pushing you into to say, to connect with. Is that a, can I describe that better? Or is that, does that? Work. I think that's good.

In fact, I, Tobin, my husband, has observed that more than I have. And my son has as well. He's like, mom, you have to give yourself some time because we had some very difficult things several years ago with one of our kids. And I just cried a lot with this. Child, not child, but young adult.

And he said, Mom, you have to come up for air as well because. Typically, if someone comes to talk to me, It will be because they're in a struggle of some kind or they're stuck in some way. And so I want to ask them. where they are. right then and things they've tried but More than that, like you said.

Feelings aren't everything, but they are an indicator of what's going on internally. They are like symptoms of a cold. it goes to the root of something.

So if someone has had a ton of trauma. They may say, Well, this is bothering me, or this is bugging me, or this has happened, I'm afraid, or. And I'll ask a question like, Where do you think that fear comes from? Or What happened? Maybe In the past, has something happened in the past that has caused you to?

Doubt God or doubt his goodness or his faithfulness. And then we'll dive right in. Because I don't want to waste their time. I want to really care. Absolutely.

That's it. I don't want to waste their time or mind. And right There's no need to sit there and talk about the superfluous. No, there's a reason you and I are having this conversation. Let's get to it.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And usually if they don't want to talk, they won't. Come to me or call me or write.

So, I really want to honor their time. By listening, and then oftentimes I'll pray while they're talking, Lord, just direct my words. Like you said, I do interviews that I'm not scripted, I don't have scripts. often When I do an interview, because I can't do a scripted thing. Oh, I can't either.

What does this person need? Help me to know what you want. them to hear. Because I'm broken and I'll probably say something wrong. I want you to speak to them.

And then it's all him.

Well, and that's the way I feel about when I play. These people have made their way to church. Yeah. What is my responsibility here? What is my stewardship opportunity here?

Do I just want to entertain them? Do I want them to applaud on how well I play the piano? Or do I want to give them something to hang on to in the midst of their distress? Yes. What is the noble calling?

There is a point as a musician, at least for me, and I've seen this with a lot of others, particularly in church music. Where you stop playing for applause. You stop playing for applause. I know I know how to play the piano. I don't need that constant affirmation.

What I would rather you understand. Do you understand what I'm playing here? Do you understand the text of what I'm saying here? Right, right. There was a lady, and this was driven home to me when I was playing up at the Nashville.

And a lady came up to me.

Sometime after I've been doing this. And she said, I want you to know what your playing has meant to me. And I said, um What What do you, what do you, you know, what, what's the context? And she said, I was going through a pretty messy divorce. And I ran into one of the associate pastors.

And no, no, if somebody didn't even go to the church, it wasn't even a member, I don't think, but they had been visiting. and her husband had left her for a million. And it was just. It was just horrific. And she said.

And her friend said, go up to the church up on the hills. There in Nashville, in Green Hills area. And she said, go up there and listen to that guy play the piano before the service. That is so great. And I thought.

That's a higher calling. I don't need to play for applause. I have broken people listening. And I want to Meet them in their brokenness the same way. That I was meant in mine.

Yes. And if I don't do that. Then what good am I? What am I doing here? Right.

And because this is what Christ did for me. He condescended into my life. And he met me in my brokenness. And I love what Bill Gaither said: you know, all I had to offer him was brokenness and strife. But he made something beautiful of my life.

This is what he does: he's the greatest junk collector in the universe. He is the biggest dump truck. I love it. 1-800 GOT JUNK. Yes, exactly.

And that's. And I realize I look at the broken mess of my life. I look at all the things that I did. And you were talking about things you look back when you said I didn't know. And I look at for the vast majority of my life, it's just being cringeworthy.

You know, I'm just like, oh, you know. But he redeems all of these things. And and um I am just most grateful. I don't know how he does, but he does. He reaches into the vilest of things.

He's not amazing.

So, well, listen, I've taken up a lot of your time here. And, but, Colleen, I want you to know how much this has meant. And I hope this has been a. Rewarding time for you as much as it has been for me, just to be able to be with you and listen to you. People want to find you, go out to reframingministries.com.

Reframingministries.com. And Colleen. Last thing, we're going into Christmas season. Yeah. What's Christmas like at your place?

It's crazy. It is You know, it is home. We have a small tree. It's up on a suitcase because it's so small. We put it up.

Every year is different. We lost my father-in-law a couple years ago.

So we are. going into our third Christmas without him. Um And I want Christmas around here to be more, I want it to be an experience. Rather than A bunch of gifts. This last year, my husband and I decided we want to give our kids gifts that are experienced gifts.

Because once we're gone, should the Lord take us before them, please do. I don't want to bury my children. I want them to remember that mom and dad had fun and that they. took joy in. Us.

So that's what I hope. Christmas will be like. It will be. It will be. If that's your time.

If you keep talking about Montana, we may come your way. Come on out. Our cabin's small, but Montana's big. It's a big place. This is where we started coming out for Christmas, just Gracie and I and the boys.

Gracie and me and the boys, Gracie and I and the boys, Gracie. We all came as a family. I was a terrible student. I graduated. Thank you, Laudie.

We started coming out here in 95. This is her family's had this place for many years. And nobody came out here in the wintertime, but we did. And our little family would come out here for Christmas every year since 95, except for maybe two. It's been a place of healing for us.

And maybe that's why Gracie loves with the snow and everything else that she does. And she really does take it personally if I disrupt the snow because she loves the pristineness of it and maybe. That's what her spirit recognizes most. This is the promise of God that he is going to. Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, that he is going to make all of this new.

Not all new things make it all new. And that's the promise that that's the hope that we have. And I love the music of Christmas. I love everything about it. And out here, it does.

She grew up, she had Christmas in Florida. She said, no, it's not the same. No, you can get a suntan in Florida at Christmas time. But I also deal with winter, it may remind her. Winter may last for a season, but Joy comes in the morning.

Spring comes. And new things arrive, and that is. That is what I so look forward to. I know the roots grow deeper in winter, but I also know I love. spring.

And that's the hope that we have with Jesus. She she cut a song. I need to find her music. She's the real deal. My piano professor back in Nashville accompanied her.

When she was auditioning for Belmont. And that was back in the spring of 83. Her fall, her rec was in the fall of 83. And he played at our wedding. He's been a great friend.

And I knew him before I knew Gracie, and he knew Gracie before he knew me. Wow. But he called her up and he said, I think I got a song. that I'd like for you to sing You Must Believe in Spring. and it was written by michelle legrand and the bergmans what's it called You Must Believe in Spring by Alan Bergman and Marilyn Bergman.

When lonely feelings chill the meadows of your mind, just think when winter comes, can spring be far behind? Beneath the deepest snow. Beneath the deepest snows, the secret of a rose is merely that it knows you must believe in spring. And it's just a. It's a beautiful song.

It's one of the most beautiful songs you'll ever hear. And she. Does it with him? I just pulled it up. I'm going to listen to it.

Well, there's only like three or four people that have ever recorded this: Tony Bennett. Barbara Streison, and I think Gracie. Wow. It's not a well-known song. Uh but it is such a an extraordinary song and um What a great thing to write on.

And it's just a beautiful. Description of or a season. Yeah. This is the way it's got to be. Yeah.

But we have the promise. Of what God is going to do, and it settles our hearts. And as a friend of mine told me, he just buried his wife after taking care of her with Alzheimer's. And he said, we have the. We live in the moment, but we have the perspective of eternity which gives meaning to the moment.

Yeah. And I love that.

So, you and your family live in the moment, but you have the perspective of eternity, which gives meaning to the moments with all the things that you guys deal with. I want you to know, Colleen, that you have really touched my heart today. This has been an extraordinary conversation. Thank you for taking the time today to talk with me. It's my honor.

And Peter, thank you for. speaking to all of us as caregivers. and just reminding us of spring. And the many things that you're doing, mostly the things that nobody else sees. that you do.

I really honor that. And no, in heaven. You and Gracie will be running together.

Well, he says so. They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. Johnny often tells me that she's looking forward to horseback riding with me in heaven. I want to be, I'm coming too. Um, every now and then, I'll FaceTime with her, and I'll say, Look, if you want, I'll FaceTime while I'm on a horse and you can ride with me.

And uh, that's great. And uh, so I think that those are all the promises that we have. This is why we don't despair. And I understand despair. You understand despair.

And when you said that, you know, you were cleaning people's houses and doing yard work for them while trying to take care of three kids, including a special needs kid. And That is a That is a level of Heartache. And not desperation, but But fortitude that born out of This is what I got to do. That very few people could truly understand unless they've walked there. This is what I got to do.

Yeah, like rubbing Jonathan's feet. It calms him more than, it calmed him as a baby. I don't do much for Gracie when I do that. I know. Well, you don't have to work too hard at it.

No, no, she's well, her feet are here, she's in the other room. There you go. Bye. I encourage people always just. Try washing someone's feet someday.

Just experience that. And now it's a joy.

Well, when I watch Gracie's feet, I do it in the sink with comet and a brush. But I remember that when she did go on, this is so goofy. I'm sorry. Because you were in such a moment, and I just went. Total idiot on it.

No, I didn't know. When we went on the today show. Uh, one time, and I did that. I had a foot washing service for her. I was washing her feet so they could look pretty on the today's show.

I was in the sink, and then after I dried them, I wrote John 3:16 on the bottom of it in a Sharpie because I want her feet shod with the gospel of peace.

So, I wrote that. Then, did she turn around and hit you with her legs? She just rolled, she just rolls her eyes at me. I mean, I love it. She's heard it all.

She said, Yeah, other people laugh at you, but I've heard all your stuff. It's really not that fun anymore. Stay at it because we've been married a long time, and so you both speak fluent sarcasm to each other. Yeah, we get that around here for sure. You have to have humor.

I mean, come on. We do. No, we live life, we live life large, and you do too as well. And I want you to have a Merry Christmas. I look forward to hearing how your Christmas went.

We'll do this some more. And Colleen, thank you for taking the time. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Peter. This is Peter Rosenberger.

This is Hope for the Caregiver. Thanks for joining this long form edition of the program. And we're going to do more like this. And if you want to see more, go out to hopeforthearegiver.com. You've heard me talk about Standing With Hope over the years.

This is the prosthetic limb ministry that Gracie envisioned after losing both of her legs. Part of that outreach is our prosthetic limb recycling program. Did you know that prosthetic limbs can be recycled? No kidding. There is a correctional facility at Arizona that helps us recycle prosthetic limbs.

And this facility is run by a group out of Nashville called Core Civic. And we met them over 11 years ago. And they stepped in to help us with this recycling program. of taking prostheses and you disassemble them. You take the knee, the foot, the pylon, the tube clamps, the adapters, the screws, the liners, the prosthetic socks, all these things we can reuse And inmates help us do it.

Before Corcivic came along, I was sitting on the floor at our house or out in the garage. And when we lived in Nashville, I had tools everywhere, limbs everywhere, and feet, boxes of them, and so forth. And I was doing all this myself, and I'd make the kids help me. And it got to be too much for me. And so I was very grateful that Core Civic stepped up and said, Look, we are always looking for faith-based programs that are interesting and that give inmates a sense of satisfaction.

And we'd love to be a part of this, and that's what they're doing. And you can see more about that at standingwithhope.com/slash recycle.

So please help us get the word out that we do recycle prosthetic limbs. We do arms as well, but the majority of amputations are lower limb, and that's where the focus of Standing With Hope is. And that's where Gracie's life is with her lower limb prostheses. And she's used some of her own limbs. In this outreach, that she's recycled.

I mean, she's been in amputee for over 30 years.

So you go through a lot of legs and parts and other types of materials, and you can reuse prosthetic socks and liners if they're in good shape. All of this helps give the gift that keeps on walking, and it goes to this prison in Arizona, where it's such an extraordinary ministry. Think of that: inmates volunteering for this, they want to do it, and they've had amazing times with it. And I've had very moving conversations with inmates that work in this program. And you can see, again, all of that at standingwithhope.com/slash recycle.

They're putting together a big shipment. Right now, for us to ship over, we do this pretty regularly throughout the year as inventory rises and they need it badly in Ghana.

So please go out to stadywithhope.com/slash recycle. And get the word out and help us do more. If you want to offset some of the shipping, you can always go to the giving page and be a part of what we're doing there. We're purchasing material in Ghana that they have to use that can't be recycled. We're shipping over stuff that can be.

And we're doing all of this to lift others up and to Point them to Christ, and that's the whole purpose of everything that we do, and that is why Gracie and I continue. to be standing with hope. SandywithHope.com. My hair. Lean on me, we will stay.