America is Already at War — But with Who?

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That is where I buy my gold, noblegoldinvestments.com. Okay, everybody. Today on The Charlie Kirk Show, Tom Klingenstein for a very riveting interview.

I think you'll love it. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. And go to Amfest. That's amfest.com, A-M-F-E-S-T dot com. Tucker Carlson, Patrick Bet-David, Candace Owens, Glenn Beck, Rob Schneider, Roseanne Barr, Dennis Prager, Ali Bestucki, Jonathan Isaac, James O'Keefe, Riley Gaines, Ben Carson, Michael Anton, Jason Whitlock, Gad Saad, Brandon Tatum, Seth Dillon, Jack Pessobic, Benny Johnson.

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That's why we are here. Brought to you by the loan experts I trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandtodd.com. Joining us now is a very powerful guest. Who has a remarkable piece with Avik Ramaswamy asking the question, are we in a war? Tom Klingenstein joins us. Welcome back, Tom. Thank you for taking time. Tell us about this conversation you had with Avik.

Lots to unpack here. The reason I wanted to interview Avik is because of all the presidential nominees, with perhaps a partial exception of Trump. He's the one that understands that we're in a war. He can explain what that means. As he's fond of saying, you can't win a war if you don't know you're in one. So requirement number one is to know you're in one, and requirement number two is to have a commander in chief who can lead the war.

So that's what Avik did. He challenged his opponents, particularly Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis, to declare themselves. Do they think we're in a war or don't they? And he even went so far as to say that they're not real patriots if they don't address the issue of our time. So that was the gist of the interview, I think. And he, in addition to the war, you know, he talked about his various policies, immigration, birthright citizenship.

He wants to pass an English only amendment. But I think the real nuts of it, the center of it, was this idea we're in a war and my opponents either don't realize it or realize it, but don't say it. So from your perspective, how is it possible that a majority of the people running, not a majority, everyone but two running for the Republican nomination, don't even acknowledge that we're in a war? Is it that they know it and they don't want to say it because it sounds too radical? Is that they're living in a delusion? How do you explain that?

Well, my basic answer is I don't know. One answer, which is what Vivek proposed, not unreasonably, is if you acknowledge a risk, in this case war, then you've got to do something about it. And this is true with most of us. We tend to put our heads in the sand because, again, if we acknowledge whatever the danger is, then we might have to do something about it. So some of it, again, this is I'm really channeling Vivek here.

He's calling. In fact, he explicitly called them cowards. I also think that, you know, Republicans have been thinking about the world for generations now in a certain kind of way. And they have an understanding of what constitutes the right left Democrat Republican split.

And it's hard to get out of old ruts. Sometimes they're intimidating, I guess. You know, if you come out and you say we're in a war and you attack Black Lives Matter and you say things as I did in a recent speech, America is not racist. If you say things like that, you get called racist. And most of our politicians, Vivek and Trump being notable exceptions, don't want to be called racist.

They want to get invited on mainstream media. So that's part of the problem. Now, some of it, I guess, is, as I say, they just don't understand.

Partly they don't understand because nobody's been telling them. You know, we need a leader. This is what leaders do.

They explain to people what's going on. That's what Lincoln did in the Civil War. Yes, he was a good commander in chief, but he won the war as much by explaining what the war was about, what the stakes were. And we're missing something, somebody like that. Trump can assert and searching is very important at the moment. He's not, as your audience knows, always the great explainer. But he's certainly good at diagnosing and he has phenomenal instincts. So the you know, you take someone, for example, like Nikki Haley.

Charlie, if I may respond to that, I want to say absolutely. But I also want to say one of the criticisms of Trump, I hear it all the time, he's divisive. Trump is not divisive. He revealed the divide in this country.

And for that, he deserves a great, great deal of credit in the same way, by the way, he revealed the threat of China. But we shouldn't let the other side get away with the complaint. And don't let our own side. I mean, Nikki Haley will say he's Trump is to fight. Does the fight decide what is the word I'm fighting for their advice?

Yes, he's not. And we ought to assert that. So anyway, Charlie, I interrupted you. No, I appreciate that. So the I'm trying to dive a little bit deeper into this. And, you know, I've taken several Claremont courses and I love the Claremont Institute.

It's amazing. I was a fellow Lincoln fellow a couple of summers ago and we talked a lot about this is once you acknowledge that you're in a war, then you can go about solving it and fixing it. And that really is the divide right now. Now, Tom, you talk about this in your piece where if I go to an average Republican breakfast, 500 grassroots folks. Ninety nine percent of them will tell us we're in a war. If I go to an average turning point USA meeting, they know we're in a war. But if I go to the Republicans running for president or Republicans in Congress, they say, no, no, no, we're not in a war. How do you explain that disconnect where the rank and file, the base, the patriotic core of the party know that we're in a war? Yet the leaders refuse to acknowledge that. Well, that's the healthy part of our society that understands the importance of family and church and community.

And they can see those things being eroded. Our leaders, again, they're in Washington and they're a little bit distant. But the rank and file Trump's base, we're very, very lucky to have Trump's base. Your audience that you talk about who understands when in a war, we need those people very much. And that's one of the reasons I tend to favor Trump is that he has this base that's passionate. You know, the other side, it's always true in a revolution that there are relatively few revolutionaries, very committed who can carry the day. We usually don't have people on our side that can match the passion and enthusiasm of the woke radicals. Trump's base can do that.

That's so smart. Build that out. Typically, the American right is more focused on building their family, building their business, raising their kids and doing the minimum amount of work possible. What the MAGA Trump movement has done is now we have matched, if not surpassed, the activist passion from the left. I couldn't.

Charlie, I don't know that I could improve on that. But just walk us through the history, because when I think of old school republicanism, it's more intellectual arguments, small groups of people winning the debate. But the left has always had the advantage with the infantry, always.

And that game has changed. And I think that's right for the very reasons you said. Conservatives have been more focused on their community, their family, their church.

Right. And politics has not been all that important. Remember, the way we designed this country, it was to give states and local communities the power. And now, of course, the power is in Washington. So as you just ended, we are very, very lucky to have Trump's base. And again, one of the reasons I tend to favor Trump is that he can utilize that base in a way other Republicans cannot.

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So check it out, paxfg.com slash Charlie. Everyone should check out the Web site, Tom Klingenstein, dot com chairman of the Claremont Institute. So acknowledging that we're in a war for some people, Tom is uncomfortable. I recently was chatting with a Republican donor.

He's a good person, but he's very naive, wealthy. And he says, Charlie, I don't like this language that we're in a war. We've been through tough times before and cooler heads ultimately prevail and we have more in common than not. And we need to stop our divides and find common ground.

You've heard that shtick before, Tom. Respond to that sentiment. It's different this time. I mean, you have to allow for the possibility that while it's generally true, we've been able to get through tough times, times division. We haven't always. The Civil War is a good example. Now, what made the Civil War distinct is that one side thought slavery was a good thing and wanted to expand it. And the other side thought it was bad and wanted to contract it.

Well, you can't go in two directions at the same time, which was why at the time we either had to fight or part ways. Well, we have a similar situation here to understandings of justice. One that believes in, you know, fair play merit and the other believes in group quotas. So those are the differences that we haven't had in the past. They're fundamental differences.

Now, that's at the level of theory. But then we can look at what's happening, you know, today in America. And we're talking about people censoring and shaming and the government spying on us. People getting fired, required to make loyalty oaths to DEI to get a job. Some people even denied banking services. How about legal representation?

This is something we don't talk much about. If you worked for Trump, there is an organization out there called the 65 Project that wants to despair you, keep you from ever representing people again. And of course, this won't stop at Trump lawyers. It will continue.

And it will apply over time to anybody who defends an anti woke cause. So these things are really unique, right? This isn't the run of the mill divide that we've seen.

I tell you something else that impresses me. Not always easy to convince people. But I think Trump was taken out in a coup and it was an election fraud.

I don't know. You know, I don't know if we'll ever prove whether there was or there wasn't. But I think that they ousted him through investigations. You know, this Russian hoke indictments, nonstop beating him up by the press. That was the coup. And now, in an unbelievable act of projection, the woke left has convinced America's no, it was Trump who tried to initiate a coup. So Republicans should stop defending themselves against the charge that Trump started an insurrection. He did no such thing. It's the other side that has initiated an insurrection.

So these are things that are unique. And so to that donor that you described, this is the case I would make. Sometimes the divide is not bridgeable and in a war you don't reach across the aisle. That's a sucker's game.

And that's what I would say to that gentleman. OK, normally we compromise, but we only can compromise if we agree on ends. So to give you a very simple minded analogy, if you and I are in New York, we want to go to Maine. OK, we can figure it out. We might want different routes, go at different speeds, etc. But if you want to go to Maine and I want to go to Florida, there is no compromise.

There is a difference in ends and ends cannot be compromised. So you have to make the case that this time is different, that, you know, what applies in most times doesn't apply now. But, of course, we need a leader to say that.

That, again, is what we're lacking. A leader who will say it and explain it and be able to respond to that donor of yours. The donor's attitude is not insignificant. I'd say a majority of people in the ruling class have that attitude. They live a comfortable life and they almost refuse to acknowledge that life might have to get a little bit uncomfortable to save something bigger than themselves. That's what a war is all about.

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That is PatriotMobile.com slash Charlie or call 972-Patriot, PatriotMobile.com slash Charlie. Use promo code Friday 76 today. So, Tom, the obvious question is, once we are able to educate people and enlighten them that we are in the midst of a war, which the rank and file know that we are in a war. What next? What is the battle plan and what does success look like? Well, first of all, you've got to do things like you don't you don't reach across the aisle, right?

That's very important. We have to understand the enemy. One of the main weapons of the enemy is they're trying to convince us that we are systemically racist. And if they can succeed in that, then we'll hand them the keys to the castle. Why would we want to support a racist country?

So somebody has to stand up and say, no, we're not racist in the same way they have to stand up and say there was a coup. You just talked that advertisement about, I guess, Catholic schools. This is the great battleground now. If you're the woke left, you have to capture K through 12. That's where the brainwashing starts. And therefore, we on the right have to try to maintain K through 12. Now, there's some good news here because of all the areas of American life. K through 12 is one where there is some pushback on the right.

So your listeners, those with children, ought to get on their local school boards and they ought to take this pornography out of their school libraries. And they have to insist on an America first civics education. They have to insist that they teach America despite its many sins, that this is a great country. They live in the greatest country in the world.

And I would say one other thing. If you don't teach children to love and cherish their country, why would they fight for their country? Exactly. At some you know, at some point we need young men in particular to fight. Well, why would they fight for something that was worthy of disdain? The military recruitment numbers show what happens when you get a generation to hate the country.

They're down 25 to 30 percent in certain branches of the armed forces. So let's go through some of the advantages that we on the right have. You've touched on this. I would we could go through the disadvantages, too. If you were just to kind of as an outside observer, say we are in a war and you have one side versus the other, the right versus the left.

What are the advantages that the right has for us to win this war? You know, I'm I'm more comfortable giving you the disadvantage. Well, then do that first. I mean, one is one of the advantages we talked about.

And by the way, let me stop. And just since you mentioned the military and recruitment, I don't know how much of the shortfall is woke, but a lot of it is. And we have to start in our armed services, stop with all this gender, racial outcome, equality. That's not the point. The point of the military is to kill people, obviously, in defense of America. Right. The rules that apply in the general public. Right. Don't necessarily apply in the military because the military has a different goal, which I said to kill people and therefore they have different standards.

Now, to your question. Of the things we lack, even with Trump's base, we don't have the kind of committed force that the left has. Obviously, we don't control any of the major institutions in this country. The one place where we have a real presence is in politics at local and the federal level.

That is a strength. But we have to use it. We have to use it. And we don't have any leaders at the moment. And that's, you know, if there's one, you know, if there's one thing I could say, convince people, is the need for leadership. We need a Lincoln, a de Gaulle, a Churchill.

Right. Even Trump, as flawed as he is, has some of the characteristics of a leader. That's an asset we've got.

Larger than life, someone with attributes that fit this moment. I'm fond of saying Trump might have been the worst president we ever had at any other time. But at this time, I think he has the mix of virtues that fit the moment.

So he's a big, you know, he's a big advantage. Of course, I also think that conservatives have, Republicans have better ideas. But we need more than ideas at this point. You know, I keep talking about leadership. But I think that's so critical. And one of the points I wanted to make, if I'm not going on too much journey. You're allowed to go on as long as you like.

It's excellent. OK. Is, we were talking before, how do you convince America that you're in a war? Well, here's one way, perhaps. Ron DeSantis ought to bow out of this race and get behind Trump and campaign for him and stop throwing or shooting arrows at Trump. Shoot him at Biden.

Express a willingness to serve in Trump's administration. Obviously, DeSantis is very qualified. And doing that, I think, gives him an opportunity to explain just what's happening. I mean, even to the act of stepping out of the race, which, you know, you never see that. Right.

That act by itself is noteworthy and calls attention to the fact we're in a war. You know, if I'm DeSantis and I'm just thinking about my own self-interest, I stay in this race. Right.

What do I have to lose? Maybe some money, but it's not my money anyway. Right. But that's the selfish, unpatriotic thing to do.

That, I will repeat, is selfish. If he's a patriot, if he really understands the stakes, then he'll get out of this race and get totally behind Trump. Now, I don't know about Haley. She'd have to declare whether, I mean, would she vote for Biden over Trump? If so, she should say so. She's not going to get very far if that's her platform. But if she doesn't, if she said I'll vote for Trump over any Democrat, then she should get out, too. You isolate leadership. A concern that some people have, and I think it's interesting, is that if Trump were to win, we still have all the other existing cultural problems.

But a leader can go about solving them. I want you to take a step back, Tom, and give us your opinion on the raw material of America as far as the everyday man. Do you think the country is lost from the everyday ethos, how people operate, the values, the morals and the character that they have? Forget the ruling class for a second. Do we still have that strong mean, the middle class, or has that been largely destroyed by a regime over multiple generations?

Well, if it has, then we're doomed, right? People have to remember, and I think the average person understands, that our regime, the founders understood that our regime was dependent more than any other kind of regime on the virtue of the citizens, right? Checks and balances and those things that we learn in civics, they're important, but they are very secondary bulwarks. The first line of defense is the virtue of our citizens. And I believe, I certainly hope, but I also believe that the healthy part of our society, the part that believes in family. And let me pause to say, nothing is more important than family because it's family that teaches the next generation of citizens what it means to be an American citizen, what constitutes virtue. So we still have a large portion of the population that believes in family.

Yes, religion is falling, but we're still a more religious nation than is Europe and most of the rest of the world. So you asked me earlier for positives. That's one of them.

So I'm counting on what I imagine to be your audience. On the other side, they're going about trying to destroy family. BLM even had that as part of their mission statement. They want to get rid of family and that's part of their effort to achieve outcome equality. Everything that they're doing one way or another, directly or indirectly, is aimed at bringing about this outcome equality regime.

But to answer your question or to repeat my answer, I think absolutely there are enough people. And I even think that many Democrats, the Democrats have been taken over by the radical wing. Somebody within the Democrat establishment has to stand up and distance themselves from the woke radicals, because if they don't, then they're just like the woke radicals. They can say they're not, but they amount to the same thing.

I would add to the list of advantages, and it has not it has not been finalized. But the trend is positive when you see people like Elon Musk engage in the cultural landscape and use some of their political power and some of their podium towards calling out the woke and trying to do something to protect Western values. I'm not saying Elon is on the conservative side, but he certainly is making life more difficult for the radical Marxist. I'm not saying Elon Musk is on the conservative side, but he certainly is making life more difficult for the radical Marxist. I'm not saying Elon Musk is on the conservative side, but he certainly is making life more difficult for the radical Marxist. I'm not saying Elon Musk is on the conservative side, but he certainly is making life more difficult for the radical Marxist. I'm not saying Elon Musk is on the conservative side, but he certainly is making life more difficult for the radical Marxist. Tom Klingenstein dot com.

It's Tom Klingenstein dot com. So, Tom, there's so much I want to talk to you about the last topic that I want to cover, though I'm not sure how long this will take is the use of political power. If you were to create a game plan, a war plan for people that are in office, attorneys general governors, the House of Representatives, since we are in a war, how should we use political power? Sepinas, investigations, legislation, what does that look like?

I mean, I'm not sure that's my area of expertise, Charlie, I was going to say, but there are things that we can do. One reason for optimism, you noticed in these Hamas protests, finally, some of the big donors started withdrawing their contributions or committing not to contribute to these Ivy League schools where they've encouraged protest. One of the advantage you asked earlier, well, the conservatives still have money. They don't have as much money as the left, but they have money and they ought to use that.

And, you know, that's power for 70 years, at least. The wealthy Republican donors have financed colleges that are teaching things that are very much against their interest. Maybe these protests will alert them to the fact that, you know, their colleges have been teaching something very bad and the Hamas protests are just an extension.

I think, you know, attorneys generals can go after this ESG attorney general or states can, as they have in some states, initiate their own border patrols. I mentioned school boards. The number one thing is education. We can't allow our young people to be educated in the idea that America was founded on racism. That's where it seems to me we have to put our efforts, K through 12. We're doing a report in Maine about education.

Why is it going down? What can we do about it? And parents have a lot of power here. Change superintendents, change school boards.

It starts with K through 12. That's where I would put my emphasis. And that's with the people, not with the elected officials, but with the people. This is a time for the people to rise up.

Final question here, Tom. Do you think we're going to win? I don't know any more than you do, Charlie, or your audience, but I'm hopeful. The answer is, I think we're going to win. And in part, that's because I want to win. And I think it's so important that we do win. And what everybody has to understand, Trump understands it, that we've got to win.

We don't have that many more choices, despite what that wealthy donor of yours that you referred to earlier believes. You know, we don't have that much time, and we need that sense of urgency, which is one reason I want DeSantis out of the race and support Trump. And explain to people, because DeSantis can explain, explain why it's different this time and why Trump is the leader for this moment.

I agree completely. Trump is facing 700 years in federal prison. They're throwing everything at him. DeSantis has a chance to show the world that there are higher purposes than just your own personal political ambitions.

The country. You might not like Trump. You might think he's a jerk, but the country matters a lot more than your quarrel. I think that would send a big message.

I think it would. And people like you have to send this message to DeSantis. To put it bluntly, as I did before, you're being selfish to stay in this race.

Might have been OK in another period, but right now you're being selfish. You are not being patriotic because I don't care about DeSantis as an individual. I don't care whether he wins. I care about America.

That is the most important question. Tom, excellent interview. Thank you for your time.

Tom Klingenstein dot com. Really, really sharp commentary. It was riveting. Thank you so much. Thank you, Charlie. Appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always. Freedom at Charlie Kirk dot com. Thanks so much for listening and God bless. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to Charlie Kirk dot com. See screen at SNC TV and local now channel 525.