Being Responsible for Your Children’s Education with David Goodwin

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Hey everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk Show, David Goodwin joins us. We talk about Paideia, the progressive model of education and why you should make sure your kids are educated classically, classical education. Email us as always, Freedom at CharlieKirk.com.

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Brought to you by the loan experts I trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandtodd.com. Joining us now is a very interesting man who co-authored a very important book, Battle for the American Mind with Pete Hegseth, David Goodwin. David, welcome to the program. Hey, it's good to be with you, Charlie. You know, we really hit it off, I guess you could say, at a thing in Tennessee that Pete was hosting all about education and you and I just talked and talked and talked and talked and really glad we did. And also you're involved with classicalchristian.org, right?

You're correct. Yeah, the Association of Classical Christian Schools. So I was really moved by one of the pamphlets you gave me that contrasts government education and industrial era education with classical education. What are the differences? Boy, there are two very different forms of education.

I suppose the biggest difference is they have two different goals. The goal of modern public education is really to create subservient citizens who will do what the state tells them to do. And the goal of classical education is to create free citizens, hence it was originally called liberal arts or the liberal education. So freedom. Yeah, and some would say that the modern industrial government model came from Prussia, like very much like sit down, shut up, you know, top down, authoritarian.

So let's define our terms. Then how would you best define classical education for someone that's completely uninitiated? Well, it was invented in Greece. It was built in the West. It formulated and effectively built the Western mind over the course of 2000 years. So it, of course, by definition is difficult to put your finger on necessarily, but it consists of the seven liberal arts. The first three grammar, logic and rhetoric are the linguistic training component of it.

And then the second four, which are called the quadrivium, and I won't go into those, but those focus on the mathematic elements of thinking. Why, where did we, where did things change and who changed them when we went away from a classical base of education in this country? Because the founders were all educated classically, correct? Abraham Lincoln was educated classically. So the people that we look very highly in the late 1800s, early 1900s, something changed.

Why and who? Well, you put your finger on one of the things, which is the German model of education, which was a very industrial thing, came in in mid 19th century. But the real shift occurred in about 1915. You can almost put your finger on it because John Dewey, the father of modern American education, by that time was having a strong influence in particularly the progressive movement as it rose. And that progressive movement had some very specific goals in their agenda. And one of them was to replace and eliminate classical education. Dewey says as much.

Why? Why would John Dewey, the great person, the person that we put up as like the Archbishop of American education, why would he want to get rid of classical education? Well, publicly, he said it was worthless because it didn't create, I suppose, worthless might be a strong word.

It was not useful because it didn't create citizens who could do anything like make widgets in a factory. But what he was really attempting to do and what scholars have pointed to since is cow the American public into thinking in a particular way instead of being free and open thinkers who could evaluate logically what was being said. Let's take a step back and understand the context of what was also happening politically during this. Woodrow Wilson was president. Woodrow Wilson was a German historicist who did not believe in the founders vision for the country. He believed that we must have, for lack of a better term, a philosopher king type council of experts that should be immune from political pressures.

I think that was actually speech he gave. And so simultaneously in 1915, you had an educational revolution. So Woodrow Wilson won largely because Teddy Roosevelt premiered William Howard Taft, not primary, but he did primary and then he ended up running as the third party in the Bull Moose Party. Wilson wins like 42 percent of the vote.

Former Princeton University president and professor and then governor of New Jersey. Woodrow Wilson wanted to almost refound the country. Right. And yet education is the least talked about of the 19 teens. We talk about the Federal Reserve Act, the Income Tax Act, the 17th Amendment, the 18th Amendment. But we don't talk about the educational revolution. Was Dewey's vision simultaneously alongside Wilson to create like a secret society of a council of experts that are immune to any sort of pressure from the sovereign and a bunch of worker bees that will do what they're told? I think so. I mean, I think the entire pragmatic vision of Woodrow Wilson, it was pretty typical of the entire progressive movement, which was this weird admixture of guys even like Teddy Roosevelt.

Right. He played a role in the progressive movement because he had the kind of the original manifest destiny. I mean, it had been around for a while, but he really drove that home. But there's this idea that America itself was salvific. It didn't lean on Jesus Christ as the basis for America.

So it was in itself looking towards sort of an American this manifest destiny piece. And then that blended with Woodrow Wilson or, of course, the religious arm. Wilson has been called the most religious president that we've ever had, which is a very strange thing when you think about what he promotes.

But he was, of course, the president of Princeton before he was president of the United States. That was sort of a social gospel component where the gospel had been undermined and turned into this social activist group in the late 19th century. So you had those two components, the manifest destiny and the social gospel folks, and then you had the socialists. And Dewey was an atheistic humanist, but he also brought with him a lot of the socialist ideas that came in. And those three things melded together into this thing called progressivism, which was kind of uniquely American. But it had at its center education because they knew that this thing called paideia would control the direction of the country and they needed to get control of it.

But it had one kind of downside, and that was it took about one or two generations, so 40 to 80 years, to actually turn the boat. And so they started in about 1915. What is paideia? Paideia is sort of, the way I've sometimes described it is, you remember back in Vietnam, we brought a lot of babies here at the fall of Vietnam. And many of us have met those people and know those people, they are indiscernible from Americans. And when you talk to them, right, they may look South Vietnamese, but they sound American. That's because they were raised here. And this is what paideia really results in, is it's the raising of a child to think and love and be a certain way.

And that's very different around the world. The Greeks identified this a long time ago and they thought, why don't we try and intentionally create a paideia that will be able to self-govern? And that was the beginning of the West. If you were to summarize in their own best words, what is the paideia of the modern education establishment?

It's cultural Marxism, very clearly. I mean, this is why we watched in 2020 as the world seemed to turn on a dime. And that really didn't happen.

It didn't turn on a dime. It turned on a 40-year paideia that had been embedded in kids for a very long time. These are affections and values that they love. So if you look at something like gay marriage, well, they had been enculturated, the children of America have, to believe that the worst thing you can possibly do is discriminate against some group of people who self-define in some group. And because that was the value that was stated above all other values, it became sort of the driving force of everything else. It still is.

Yes, and how do you change that is an interesting question. So the book is The Battle for the American Mind. I had an opportunity, so did Blake, to go through one of your schools, I think the original flagship school, right? In Boise.

It wasn't the original, but it is one of the first ones, yes. And we saw an amazing, truly remarkable thing, where we saw classroom after classroom, and these kids are reading Aristotle and Socrates and Plato, studying Aquinas. If you're sending your kid to government school, I don't think you quite even understand what you are setting them up for. has increased 400% in part because the state is inviting women and girls to come to California for the sole purpose of aborting their baby. This is abortion trafficking. Take a stand for life by providing an ultrasound for a young woman.

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That is CharlieKirk.com and click on the preborn banner. So let's walk through a difference. In a government school, a fourth, fifth, and sixth grader, what will their day look like? A classical kid, fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, what does a typical day look like?

Well, the progressives decided that they were going to march everybody through the school. So in a public school, you've got fourth is the same for every kid, fifth the same for every kid, sixth the same for every kid. Now, in those grades, you've got, you know, they're mostly with one teacher, but they're going through textbooks, they're being told information to memorize.

They're probably, in this day and age, the problem is they're not getting a lot done because one of the problems in the public schools is that so much of the energy is put into getting everybody up to the same level that it's very hard for kids to excel. In a classical school, you know, the difference, we start in the fourth grade, we're reading a lot of classic children's works like the Arthurian Legends or Tolkien or... Fourth grade. Fifth grade is usually where Tolkien kicks in, sometimes fourth grade for The Hobbit.

And the reason we read these books is that the language that they use is high language. It's something that challenges the kids. It elevates. It elevates them, yes.

I think the progressives had this idea that kids were like computers. You just program them one step at a time and you just kind of build a ramp for them. What children really like to do, I tell this story sometimes, if you take a kid and you have one of those stepping stone kind of walks between your house in the garage or something, what will every fourth grade boy do? They'll skip around. He'll try and jump them, right? Yeah, exactly.

See how far he can get. Well, that's what they're built to do and yet we constrain them by pretending they have to take little baby steps. I don't know how you're going to react to this, but in my personal opinion, the modern industrial system is very feminine.

Yes. Do you agree with that? Yes, I definitely agree. It's very hard, I think, for boys to find the challenges to overcome that make life interesting. That's what makes a lot... For boys, it definitely makes life interesting to have challenges and things that are really hard to do to overcome.

And I think for girls sometimes too, they like that. But in any event, the feminization of the grammar school in particular, how many snowball fights and dodgeball games have been stopped by the establishment because these things are aggressive. And that's, of course, what you want to do is train young men... Well, aggression is necessary to have a civilization.

It is. It's definitely necessary. To channel it and harness it. And it's also necessary...

Exactly. It's necessary to train them. If we just don't let them be aggressive, then they'll grow up and they'll be aggressive anyway because they're boys, but they'll do it in all the wrong ways. Yeah, they'll join gangs and do bad things.

So just can you add more examples as to why, for the non-believer or the people that are not persuaded, how is elementary school, in the government sense, feminized? Well, part of it is that they take all competition out. They try and remove any challenges that are hard to overcome. They punish anything that looks like it isn't conforming to a room of 25 kids sitting in straight rows looking forward. And a lot of boys just don't react well to that. And this is why they end up in trouble more than the girls do. And oftentimes that results in boys not liking school. And then by the time they're in seventh, eighth, ninth grade, they've been conditioned not to like school. And it just goes downhill from there. And we all know what public schools are like in this deep secondary, right?

And they're like the ninth, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh. That's where, you know, the bullying and all of that sort of thing. It's because we aren't asking men or boys to be men. We're not training them up to be men.

We're training them to be hooligans, basically. And for young ladies, they're more agreeable. And also just from the literature selection in the government schools, like Little House on the Prairie, that speaks more to a young female than it does a young man. A young man wants to read Lord of the Rings a lot more than, you know, I Lost My Dog or Old Yeller or whatever.

I'm not saying that doesn't have a place, but the literature selection doesn't seem to excite young men. There's a whole book written on this. I can't remember who wrote it. There was a book recently on this.

Well, we get them both ways. So like at the school I used to be at, we would teach the Iliad at length, the Greek Iliad, which is the story of the fall of Troy, which is an all war book to seventh graders. And then by the ninth grade, they were reading Jane Austen. So there was a little bit on both sides for the girls and the boys because there's greatness on either side of that aisle. Of course there's greatness.

The idea of a novel that excites a young man in a government school, I haven't seen it very much recently. Well, they've been taken out. They've been purged.

They don't conform to the paideia that they want to deliver. Plus, we're going to be inviting members to Zoom calls with me starting very soon. So do not miss out. Help keep us uncensored by providing with new content daily by becoming a member.

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That is members.charliekirk.com. So, David, some people will say, but I want a neutral education for my kid. That's what they're getting at the local government school. It's the idea that you have a certain paideia in mind means that you know better than the kid.

Let's let them decide. Right. Well, that was the idea that was planted in the early progressive movement. They called it plasticity.

That we don't, that society doesn't want to embed ideas in kids' minds because we need to preserve the plasticity of their minds. That was their term. Which of course was a fallacy.

You can't do that. What you have is the injection of atheistic humanism as a replacement. Of course, yes. And that was Dewey. Dewey was a signer of the atheistic humanist manifesto.

So, in fact, he penned much of it. So the whole educational establishment knew better. It knew that it wasn't going to actually provide a pluralistic, neutral education.

It just wanted to get people to let go of Christianity. And so education in Latin means to lead forth. And so you should be leading them forth towards something. More and more parents are concerned about that. But traditionally, the country I grew up in, when my parents sent me to school, it was, you know, general trust of institutions. And the teachers know best. And they're going to just be led towards an ability to get into college and have a nice career. But that was never actually the case, was it?

No. They knew early on that they could shape the direction of the country. Lawrence Kremen is someone I cite in the book, who's a scholar from Columbia University, who wrote the definitive book on American education and the history of it.

It won a Pulitzer Prize. And that's what he says in the book, essentially. I can't pull the quote out of my head, but he essentially says that the progressives wanted more than just an institution. They wanted to control the nation through the paideia of the nation. And he uses that word, paideia.

Yeah. And so the. Then when we when we think of what paideia we want, we want one that develops the character and the soul of the human being. How do we best do that? Well, there's a lot of ways that historically that's been done. The stories that we embrace, the stories that we immerse our kids in, reading to our young children.

Great stories, not the stories that they're getting out of the Wal-Mart aisle at the or at the local bookstore. Go back to the origin to the great. But I think in Ephesians six, you know, that's where we're told by, of course, Paul in that situation. Fathers, don't provoke your children to anger, but raise them in the. And then there's this word in the Greek called paideia. Oh, it's actually in the scriptures.

It is, yeah. Raise them in the paideia of the Lord. Now, if it's interesting, it's interesting if you go to the various, various translations of that, it will be words like fear, admonition, education, instruction, training. Well, those aren't good translations. No, but there's seven different words that are used in different translations there because the word isn't translatable into English. And so Paul uses it several times in scripture, but it is it is a command. What does he say to raise them in the paideia of the Lord?

So what we're called to do as Christians is to bring up our children in the path, as you said, leading out of the Lord. It's almost like trying to translate logos into English. Yes.

You just can't do it. Yeah. Right.

It's such a massive word that had serious weight for the thinkers of the time or the culture of the time that we we don't even have an English equivalent to it. Well, yeah, the Greeks had this. I mean, they just bought. I think they just sat around and fought all the time. They did other things.

They conquered a few continents, that kind of thing. But they they packed a lot into a small word. And you are so right. Logos is another key word that means so much more than the word or reason. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. It has a divine construct to it. It has a meaning that ties to the transcendent ideals that I mean, it gets real heady really fast.

Same with paideia. It's a very big word. The guy who wrote the definitive work on that is three.

We wrote three volumes, thousands of pages on that single word. Yeah. And interestingly enough, I think that the first time that the logos was introduced was in Ephesus, which is also where Paul was writing his letter of the Ephesians. Right. To the people of Ephesus.

Anyway, I think it was Heraclitus or Heraclitus that came up with it. But so this is important, though, because if you have a child and it says all throughout the scriptures, raise up a child in the ways of which, you know, they will go and they will not stray. And but the secular parent has this bizarre belief that I don't know better than my kid. And it's this very like liberated progressive that we have a democratized type family.

And who am I to tell my kid how to lead their life? Right. Right. Which you're you're conveying a value just by doing that. Just by doing that, you're conveying the value that there are no values.

Yes, that's right. That there is nothing better than anything else. Your indifference is actually a statement of some truth or some ideal. Exactly. You're embedding that deep in their soul, that idea that truth doesn't matter. Which is a truth claim itself. Yes.

And so but there this is a there's really no such thing then as atheists and there's really no such thing as people without parents. Something will fill those voids. Right. Yes.

Something will become God of your life or become a parent in your life. And if you wanted the state to get bigger, wouldn't you then have the government education system that we currently have? If you wanted government to expand and people to be happy little worker bees, then classical education is a threat to that. Yes. Well, it's why at the center of every educational system, there has to be something. Yes. With the with the one exception of Jesus Christ, the thing at the center is an idol. It has to be. It always has been an idol. So the idolatry of our current country is that America or some set of values that the atheists, atheistic humanists have fed us or the cultural Marxists, those are in the center. There will always be a center like tolerance, diversity. Right.

They will they will make up the center. And this is when I started working with Pete. This was one of the interesting early points of resonance that we had was that he had been near one of our schools, met a couple of our students, Pete Hegseth. And he was he was impressed with their sort of manners and what have you. And he wondered about whether our schools kind of taught patriotic things.

And I said, well, that that isn't the way the country was set up. The country was set up with Christian education, classical Christian education, and that yields all kinds of goods. But they're in the periphery. One of those is patriotism.

But it's it's a periphery item. You can't put it at the center of education at the center has to be Christ, because nothing else can can support the weight of a Christian worldview and the weight of the West. I mean, the whole Western world, the reason it's so hated and the reason Israel is so hated is because the tradition from which Israel and Christianity come form the truth system of the West. And so that's what has to be undermined and taken apart, which is what the critical theorists did after Dewey managed to strip Christianity out of the schools. The critical theorists stepped in and retrained everyone to think in a deconstructed setting.

Yeah, Marcuse and Derrida and Foucault and Davis and Bell and Polofieri. So then let's talk about some of the other than counterfeit worldviews, because some people listening might say, OK, I'm not on board for the Christian worldview, so I'll just have kind of like a patriotic worldview. Is that possible? I guess it's better. But is that attainable? Well, it comes to the word logos that you mentioned a minute ago. The logos, of course, in the Greek understanding of it is the transcendent or ideal reality.

It is the mind of God. And so if you're going to make America that thing, it's going to be too small to fill the role. It's just America is a great nation, but it's not great enough to fill an eternal transcendent role. So it'll fail. Yes. Everything you put in that center will fail if it is not big enough to fill that hole.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And you could try. I mean, obviously, a patriotic, virtuous education is better than not. But so talk about, you know, how do you then, from a Christian perspective, blend Aristotle and Socrates and Plato into Christianity? So I was educated from a Christian perspective, but it was strictly bibliocentric, no classical elements at all whatsoever. I was thankful for it. It worked for me. Right.

It was amazing. But you have a different approach. You actually think the Greeks have something to contribute to creating strong Christians?

Because some in our audience don't agree with you on that. Right. Well, I'm taking the position that Christians took for 1800 years, which is that the kingdom is invasive.

It covers everything. There's no aspect, as Kuiper, the Dutch prime minister, once said, there's no there's not one square inch in all of creation that Christ doesn't say is mine. So if you're hoping to find a way to do classical education. So the unique thing about Christian classical education, or we call it classical Christian education, is that the Greeks invented it around the logos, around the transcendent. Yes. Christ filled that role. And early in the church history, we're talking first century, Christians like Justin Martyr, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, they spotted this and said Socrates was a proto-Christian.

Yeah, that's right. Because if we remember, why was he killed? He was killed because he corrupted the youth. What did he tell them? The truth. Well, he asked the right questions.

He asked a lot of great questions. One of the things he taught them, for example, was that there could not be a multitude of gods. Like they believed there was. No, I mean, his last dialogue was a case for monotheism.

It is, yes. The Euthyphro dialogue is that way. Anyway, not to get geeky here, I'm sure you and I would love to go back and forth on this stuff. I studied it in a Claremont class last year, and here I am reading this.

I'm like, wow, Socrates was kind of the first monotheist in the Greek world before, Moses was obviously before him. Well, he comes up with so much stuff that's central to Christian doctrine, we just don't realize it. Like what?

Inform our audience of that. Well, for example, holiness is, does God, I mean, this was one of the questions he asked. Does God just behave himself? Does he just do the holy things?

No. Socrates argued, whatever God does, whatever he actually does is holy, by definition. He's the creator of holiness, by who he is. So that's a little Christian doctrine that was picked up and, of course, built in through Augustine.

Some of the people you mentioned on your show earlier, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, all the way down through. Much of Christian doctrine is informed by the Western mind, the mind of the Greeks. So David, help our audience understand, because some people say, well, I'm sending my kid to a Christian school, and they study the Bible every day, Bible stories. That's fine, but I actually find the people that are in Christian, or classical Christian, Christian classical, that yes, do have the bibliocentric view, but they understand in Philippians says, whatsoever is true, whatsoever is beautiful, whatsoever is good. That is a comprehensive way to then understanding the beauty of the Scriptures, because then it creates a hierarchy of beauty, doesn't it?

Correct. Because then you have something to compare it to. Build that out, because some people would say, no, no, no, I don't want my kid studying Aristotle, he was a pagan, I only want him to study Esther, or Isaiah. It takes a little bit to get next to, but you've got to realize that in Christian theology, God is sovereign over all things.

God is sovereign over all things. Because we know that, we know he created the Greeks, and he created the Greek mind, and he put Jesus into time. He was in a very Hellenistic era.

Exactly. A very Greek Hellenistic era. The Bible is written in Greek, at least the New Testament is. Koine Greek.

Koine Greek. And it carried with it a lot of these meanings. You and I talked about that earlier with Paideia, with Logos, but there's a lot of words in that category.

Eleutheria, ecclesia, isonomia, the Greek word for freedom. And we are naive if we don't believe that God did that intentionally. That there was something that the Greek and Roman world had to offer as a place for Christianity. Like a launching off point.

To launch, exactly. And in fact, it fits very well. We see it, of course, there's the evident points. What is it, Acts 17 with the... Paul visits Athens? Sure, I've been there. The temple of God. The Mars Hill, yeah. The Mars Hill where he says, you know, these are the fake gods. Right, so he's referencing everything going on in that place.

It's interesting. In front of the pantheon. Yeah, as he's coming in there, he meets up with, it even specifies in Scripture, stoic philosophers. Well, there's an entire story behind just that word, stoic.

Of course. It, of course, described a school of thought that was common. Seneca, Epictetus, right? Epictetus. Yeah, Marcus Aurelius. Marcus Aurelius. Who came afterwards, right?

Yeah, 250 or so, yeah. Yeah, sure. And all, and the Stoics had a whole school of thought. And that later was addressed by the fathers of our church as they helped to coordinate the integration of the Greek mind into truth. So, your question originally, Charlie, was, what do we say to Christians who say we just need the Bible? I'm sure you've received that objection before.

Oh yes. Oh, we get it all the time. Because why, the thing is, is we'll read these Greek philosophers. Now, they aren't inspired like Scripture.

No. But we have the inspired Scripture to look at and say, look, what they were saying actually adds color. But it points, right?

Yeah. Like Galatians 3, the law is a school teacher to Christ. It, exactly. And it points to it and it clarifies.

It gives us, the more that we can embrace it, the more that we can engage it, the more we understand it, and certainly understand the language of the time and what Scripture's even saying. You know, we talked about the Logos. You mentioned its reference in Ephesians.

Of course, the famous reference is in John 1. Yes. In the beginning was the Logos.

The Logos became flesh. Yes. And John, of course, was Greek-minded. He was an Antioch. Yes. And most of it, much of his ministry was there. And so, he carries in the book of John the Greek gospel into the mix.

Yes. And that is, you know, it's so integrated that the only reason, when I sit down with parents and try and explain this, they just, it's not a matter of disagreement. They just never have heard the story. No, they have no idea. Why haven't they heard the story? Because the progressives buried it. They wanted it to go away. They had to bury classical education.

Dewey says he wants to bury classical education. Yeah, I mean, I hate to, like, none dare call it a conspiracy, right? But whatever you want to call it, it was a plan. It was a scheme.

Well, it's interesting you should say that. So, when we wrote the book, Pete and I, of course, it was published by Harper Collins, and there's an editor there, and he said, hey, I don't really want to, you know, engage in a big conspiracy here. And Pete and I both said, this isn't a conspiracy.

It was in the open. They said what they were doing in a publication called The New Republic and another one called The Progressive. That's why one of my favorite books is, it's called None Dare Call It a Conspiracy.

It's from 50 years ago. And it's like, hey, it's not a conspiracy because you literally, it's all out in the open, right? Like, people want certain things, and they tell you.

But you're not allowed to call it that because you commit the crime of noticing. David, we have to have you on again soon. This was super deep and profound.

Plug any websites or books. ClassicalChristian.org is our main association site. ClassicalDifference.org is where parents and outsiders often find interesting stuff and information about classical education. And then BattleForTheAmericanMind.org, or.com, excuse me. BattleForTheAmericanMind.com. David, God bless you, man. We're behind you 100%. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always. Freedom at CharlieKirk.com.

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